We gathered two of our most trusted US immigration lawyers, Betty Huang and Tao Lin, to offer their expert advice on the US visa process, promoting yourself as an artist, dealing with USCIS, and more. Ga Ma Diam Goods cooked up some Taiwanese comfort food for the evening, and 4N friend Allen Cao served homemade Fujianese rice wine. Hosted at telos.haus in Brooklyn, NY on June 25, 2025.
Want to hear more from our 4N Talents and their visa journeys? Read our previous 4N Exchange x MOCA and 4N Exchange at Printed Matter: A Conversation on Weaving through Visa Hurdles as a Foreign Creative.
Short on time? Check out the Quick Guide version of this conversation here.
Betty Huang, Betty Huang Law
Betty is a born and bred New Yorker who grew up in Queens. She discovered immigration law during her time in clinics at Brooklyn Law School, and has now been a practicing attorney for 17 years. A lot of her clients are seeking O-1 visas. “As a non-artist I feel cool to know about artists and their work. And I love knowing about it, because I really have to understand it to present it to USCIS.” Aside from immigration law, Betty also practices family and business law.
Tao Lin, TLA LAW
Tao grew up mostly in Taiwan before spending a few years in Hong Kong and California. He moved to New York in 1996, looking to use his passion for international affairs. Over the years he’s worked with many artists, and has a law office in NYC on 42nd street, with satellite offices in Seattle and Taiwan. “I still don’t know that much about art, but I think I know a little bit about artists now. It’s the stereotype, right, the lawyer is rational, and the artists are full of passion. So I learned how to help you guys.”
4N: The O-1 gets a lot of spotlight, people are always talking about it. Aside from the O-1, what are other visas that people could look into to stay in the US?
Betty: H-1B: This is always the obvious one, for anyone who has at least an undergraduate degree, and their job has to be related to their undergraduate degree. The problem is that there are only 65,000 available each year, and it’s about a 1-in-3 to 1-in-4 chance that you’ll get chosen by the lottery. We have no idea how they select people, they just say it’s at random.
TN: This visa is for Canadians and Mexicans, again with an undergraduate degree and a specific list of professions that qualify.
E-3: This is specifically for Australians.
L-visas: This requires you to be an intracompany transferee, which means you have to have worked at least a year abroad at a branch office for people to be transferred here. So it’s quite limited. You really have to speak to an immigration lawyer to look through your background and see where [you could fit].
Tao: After January 16, 2025 under President Biden, not Trump, you could actually form your own corporation, start your business, and go for the H-1B lottery. And there's a reason why this was enacted three days before Donald Trump became president, because President Biden wanted to make sure this is written in stone.
For the E-2, as a treaty investor, you have to be a citizen of the treaty country. For example, Western European countries, Central European countries, Canada, Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, could be E-2 investors. If you go back to school, you get the so-called "Day One CPT."
4N: If someone wants to approach your firm, what should they come prepared with?
Betty: You should start with a consultation. Folks can find me just by emailing me. I look through your CV to see how you qualify and where I can fit you into some sort of work visa. During our 1-hour consultation, I’ll go through your portfolio, you can ask me whatever questions you want, and I’ll try to advise you on whatever visas are available to you.
4N: How much research should someone do before their consultation to make sure it’s worthwhile?
Betty: uscis.gov is great, you can just poke around the site to get a little bit of an idea. And as for when they should reach out? If we're talking about a person who's been here on a visa as an undergrad, it would be great to reach out to me at the beginning of your OPT so I can help you shape your time in the US and build the best portfolio possible for an artist.
Tao: I think perhaps the most important thing—it's not even money. You need to have talent. And time is very, very important. So, if you have a couple years, we can build up your case. If you have a couple months, we'll do our best. A couple of weeks? Sorry, really, I mean, there's just no way. Let's say we have somebody from Taiwan, who only has a couple months, but he had a good career in Taiwan already, we’ll work on it together and see how things go. We also had a client, 19 years old, a sophomore at NYU, who studied art. She had really had very little information, but we have a couple years to work it out together. So I need to know where you come from, where you are going, who you are, what you want to accomplish so I can get you there.
4N: Some law firms will have events, are those events a way for people to get to know you and see if they would be compatible with your services?
Tao: Yes, sometimes we have professional events, about every quarter, where we talk about O-1s or other types of visas. Sometimes we'll invite former clients to come in and talk.
4N: There's a lot of emotions that come with trying to figure out the possibilities, where you are within your visa. Do either of you have any words of advice to deal with that?
Betty: Keeping in touch with your attorney is important. And I can give you hard deadlines. I'm happy to give you dates that you have to get back to me. I'm happy to follow up with you and harass you. I do that, you know, because I don't want to do things last-minute, I don't want to be stressed out. I want to win as much as you want to win. So, yeah, I'm here to help you, and I hope that you just follow my instructions and my deadlines.
Tao: I have a more humanistic approach. I don't want to be like, "Oh, we only have half an hour," put you under pressure. I'll charge you a low fee or minimum fee. We'll talk for an hour, an hour and a half. I want to know who you are. Are you staying for a couple years? Where are you going back? What do you want to accomplish? I want to understand you a little bit, okay, so I guess the point is you want to plan ahead as early as possible. I think you want to be a real New Yorker. “If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere," right? I think you want to be mentally tough so that you are prepared for New York City. It's very, very competitive. So I hope you have enough resources, time, money. And if you don't have any of that, at least you have the willpower. I want to make sure that you are emotionally strong, so we can get through this together.
Betty: I appreciate what you said, it's really important to know that, especially in this environment, it's going to be a journey. So you have to have your expectations set. But I personally don't file cases unless you can convince me that you're qualified, you know, I'm not here to waste your time. I'm not here to take your money for no reason. I like to win just as much as you do, so I'm not going to take your case if I feel like it's not good enough. I'll just make you go and do more work and come find me in a few more months.
4N: So if you were to reject someone's case, is it because, from you assessing their CV, their resume, they're just not ready or qualified yet, and it wouldn't be worth the time and the money put into it?
Betty: Correct. For an O-1B, specifically for an artist, there's six criteria, you need to meet at least three. I always like to get a little more than three, like a little bit of extra credit. I always want to do more. I don't want to get something called a Request for Evidence (RFE), which is what USCIS will give you if they don't think you've done enough. I'm not here to try to suck up your money and your time. So I'd rather us wait until you have a better portfolio for us to do it, whether that means continuing work here or going back home and to build up your portfolio before I file you.
Tao: Absolutely, for O-1 artists there's six items, and we gotta get at least three out of the six. But we don't want to get just three, because maybe on one the USCIS had disagreed. It's rare to get all six, but maybe we can get four or five. But what if you don't have that many yet? I want to see whether you have the potential. As I said, if I have time to work with you, to go on the journey together, I want to see if you have the potential, whether your emotion is strong, whether you have a plan. I don't want to babysit, right? If you show me "you know what, I don't have a lot of money, but I'm young, and I'm willing to do this," I'm willing to invest in you. If you do not have three out of six today, I want to see whether you will have at least three out of six in the future. That's what I'm looking for.
4N: Do you want to share the six qualifications for people who are not aware of what those are?
Betty: There's a lead role in productions or events, and those events have to have press. Lead role in organization, and that organization has to be a leading organization. Occupational achievements, so those are usually awards, maybe residencies or fellowships, maybe high salary--don't worry, nobody ever gets that one. And testimonials, which are really recommendation letters. Look for folks who are high level in your field who can write recommendation letters. And finally, press. Press about you, or press about your productions.
Tao: Sometimes I use this example: Let's say you're in the play Romeo and Juliet. If you play Juliet or Romeo, of course you're the lead. But what if you play Julia's cousin? Or Julia's cousin's neighbor? But you're at Lincoln Center--then it doesn't matter. I don't care if you are the doorman or whatever. You're at Lincoln Center! And you're covered by the New York Times. If you are playing Juliet in Romeo and Juliet at Lincoln Center and covered by the New York Times, that would be our dream. But most people don't have that. So I'm saying, you want to put that together and document your achievements. Every little thing counts. And networking--It doesn't mean you're gonna drink 100 cups of coffee with 100 different people. I don't think you want to. But in an event like this, you meet a lot of artists and you do it in a very natural, but active way.
4N: I find that every three years when I have to renew, I am always reaching out to like 10 different people, and so to make it easier on yourself, just build your community through the years. Obviously do it in a genuine way, but it will come back to help you, and you can help others. So we've talked a fair bit about the O-1, but we've also gotten some questions submitted about the EB-1. Do you want to talk about the differences between the two?
Betty: So the EB-1 criteria is a little bit different. Really what it is, it's about the analysis that the USCIS officer does. When it's the O-1 you're saying you're one of the best in the world at whatever you're doing, but for the EB-1 you're saying you're one of the best of the best. So I always like to use the tennis players analogy. Let's say, if everybody's ranked out of 200 the first 50 could probably get O-1s, and then maybe the first 10 would be able to get the EB-1 green card. So that's a kind of a generic way of seeing it. Besides the whole criteria situation, USCIS has clarified that they want to be able to see holistically, not only what you will do in the United States to benefit the United States with EB-1, but really understand your plans and holistically be able to see if you really are maybe one of the best in the world.
Tao: "EB" stands for "employment base," it's like the best of the best. So EB-1 is almost like an upgraded version of the O-1. You'll have to continue to build your career, be active and continue to maintain the network and be excellent in your field of work.
Betty: I like to jokingly end my consultations with, "Yeah, you just gotta make yourself famous, you know, no big deal." But really you need to get your name out there. Whether you're working at a company and they want to do press, you'd be like, I'll be the one, I'll represent the company. In the end, those USCIS officers are going to Google you, of course they will, and they just want to see you. We're trying to make it easy for that one officer to agree with us, and the easier you make it for them if your name's in a bunch of different places, that's what we're looking for.
4N: Do you have any advice on advocating for yourself, to put your name out there? Especially if you're feeling a little shy.
Betty: It's really hard! As an American I'm always working with non-Americans, obviously, and I have to say to them, you got to develop a little bit of American in you. You've got to go out there and brag about your work. So it's hard if you're shy. You have to have that New York attitude, and you got to go out there and hustle, and develop that personality. You got to ask for favors. You got to volunteer. You got to go out and do stuff.
Tao: You want to be active, there's no question about it, but perhaps not to the point of being overly aggressive. So what's a compromise, if you're shy? You want to be active out there. You want to maintain relationships, be a nice person, help everybody out, not just the people who will be useful to me in the future, right? If you put yourself out there and you could get your name in the newspaper and all that. And these things will come without being overly aggressive, particularly if you're shy. I think quite a few artists are not shy but, if you stay home all day, are just on the internet. No, that's not going to be very helpful.
4N: Tao Lin says no TikTok scrolling. More posting, less scrolling! I have a question that goes back to your Romeo and Juliet analogy. Sometimes we are not in the profession where we're Juliet and we're not like in the most front-facing profession, say you're like a backstage director who does the curtain stuff like how and it's not as common to see that name out there. I know for sure that there are ways around it, like you can get letters signed by specific people. How do you go about that when the person you're working with is not like an actor on the TV?
Betty: You don't have to always get publications about you, you know. And sometimes some of my clients, like you said, are, like, the, not the front facing clients, so you can write, you can do some writing yourself and publish. And we're not just saying, like, fancy journals, you know, even on blogs. So I think that there is a criteria that allows that. I don't get that many Romeos or Juliets in my practice. And if it's narrow, like you're saying, if they are an expert in a specific field, it's actually better for us, you know. I have lots of shy clients, by the way, and there are certain times when I go through their portfolio and they don't think that they're qualified, because they hear this word "extraordinary ability," or you have to be the best of the best, and it freaks them out. But I really honestly feel at least for the O, if you've built your career outside the United States for at least 10 years, I'm pretty sure I could get you an O, whether you're in front facing or not front facing, just because I know that you've done a lot in your field, you know?
4N: What are some of the biggest changes you've noticed since the new administration began? Are we seeing different outcomes for cases that you've taken?
Betty: Yeah, they're sending a lot more requests for evidence—bullshit, let's just be honest. What we learned under Trump 1.0, is that they just give you more busy work. That's what that administration is about, busy work and delaying. Getting RFEs (Requests for Evidence), unfortunately, is certainly more frequent. Asking for stuff that we've already sent or, wasting paper, because we're still paper-filing these applications with the government. They just want us to reprint stuff that we've already sent. So I'll write a snarky cover letter and send it off and we'll get approved. It's just delay tactics and busy work, is what I see.
Tao: We definitely are seeing more Requests for Evidence. Everything's getting slower and harder. I want to address the emotional impact, the fear that this administration is creating, you know, this environment, and that could be irrational. It's just like something big comes out every week or every other week, so you want to adjust that sort of emotional impact. You want to be kind of stable and deal with it.
Perhaps this summer is not a good time to travel. I'm not saying you're going to get in trouble, I'm just saying, if you can stay in the United States this summer, just be sensible. But also it depends, right? If your mother is sick and you want to see her--assuming that you have legal status--then you can go. But if your best friend is having a wedding in Paris this summer, maybe don't go. I'm just saying, just this emotional impact, the fear. We have to address it, and I think we just have to deal with it. This will be over eventually, and we just have to do the sensible thing for now. We'll see how things go next year.
Betty: The reason we don't want folks to travel is because you’ll have less encounters with Customs and Border Protection. The less you have to deal with those folks, the better it is for you. If you travel abroad and you have to renew your visa, then you have to deal with the US consulates abroad, and we would prefer if you did less of that, because they are getting directives from the government. They're government employees. So we just want less of those interactions overall. We're lawyers, we have to always think of the worst case scenario, you know. And if you want to take the risk that's fair, I understand that, but you just have to know the risks that come with it, based on this administration.
Audience Question: For those who are involved in politics, or maybe their work deals heavily with those themes–what are the best practices around the type of work you make and how it gets publicized in different kinds of media, and how they report on things?
Betty: I do take a stricter role by saying, folks with visas, don't protest. Lean on your American friends and force them to go, you can support them in different ways. I have a journalist now [who I'm working with] that may or may not have written some stuff on Palestine, and she's worried. So I think it's important to be cautious during this time period. Unfortunately, visa holders and green card holders don't have the same rights as I do as an American, so I think you should be wary.
4N: While we’re on the topic, do you want to go over a general Know-Your-Rights?
Betty: The key is, again, as an American, it’s very different for me to protest and how I deal with ICE if they come around, versus a person who’s a green card or visa holder.
Everybody has the right to remain silent, and not answer questions. And there’s two different ways we can encounter ICE, either in a public space or a private space. A private space is like when you’re at home and they come knocking on your door–they do not have the right to enter. Please, just don’t open the door. It does not in any way, help you to be cooperative and kind. I know that is a very natural reaction, but you really have to practice in the mirror these words that we're not used to saying, which is, “No, I'm not opening the door. No, I'm not talking to you.” and you gotta repeat it over and over again, or just stay silent. Don't lie to the officers and say you're a US citizen or that you have a different name. But just don't open the door. You don't have to be cooperative. They're going to be rude, they're going to be mean, they're going to be intimidating. They have every right to lie, according to the Supreme Court. They'll say things like, “We got your mom, we got your grandma,” they're gonna lie to you and scare you, and you just have to try to stay firm. I know, again, it's really difficult, and it's not something that we're used to, but you have to really try to stay firm.
In public spaces it’s a little different, especially in a workplace like this, when it’s a big open space it’s hard. Again, trying to keep them out is the key, not letting them shove their way in. Now let's say, if they do shove their way in, what do you do? Hopefully, as an American, I'm the one who’s going to be recording, and taking notes. I'm the one who’s going to be repeating over and over again “We're not talking to you, we're not cooperating with you,” all that stuff.
So what happens if you do get arrested? You know what's most important, I say this for folks that protest as well, you have to memorize somebody's phone number. If you get arrested, you're hoping that person will then call somebody who will have an immigration attorney and try to get you out. How long will you be inside? I don't know. You have to have the mental fortitude to know that the wheels of justice turn very slowly. So it's going to be days, possibly weeks. But the key is to try not to say anything, to try not to sign anything. Again, they're going to lie to you and try to get you to sign your rights away and all that stuff, but you have to try to be patient and hope the attorney will work their magic to try to get you out.
Tao: Regardless of your immigration status, you have the right to remain silent, you have the right to counsel, you have the right to refuse unreasonable searches and seizures. I advise most people: Just don’t [attend a protest]. If you’re a US citizen, yes it’s fine, if you’re a green card or visa holder, I would not participate in protesting. I agree that you have the right to, this is just not the right time. Someday, when you are a green card holder or become a US citizen, then protest any way you want, that the law allows you to do someday. But for now, I think you should be a little careful and take care of yourself first. You will be able to do that in the future, but not today.
Betty: One more piece of practical advice, if you do want to travel for a really important trip and you’re worried about customs and borders, have a burner phone that you can travel with. Or if you don’t want a burner phone, delete all the apps before you go through customs in the US, or before you board the plane. We’re talking about the social media apps, emails–they really like to go through emails. So it’s either a burner phone, in my opinion, or just delete the apps. And once you enter, you can just re-download all your apps.
Audience Question: I think we should talk about the role of the artist, by nature, is to be political. What if your work that you put on stage in a theater deals with collective liberation, historical justice, bodily autonomy, things like that? Because it's not like I'm choosing to go into politics or go protest. So I’m curious about artists making political works, how that could affect their application.
Betty: I try to select things for my client’s portfolios that I will be able to include without that worry, but yeah, it hurts me. It hurts me that I have to stymie my clients and be selective. If you want to get a visa, you just have to know that you’re taking a risk if you really need to lean into it and insist that I include that in your application. And it depends on what officer you get. Even after Trump won I’ve had clients whose specialty was DEI, and I got them their visas, and their green card. So I do feel that there are folks behind there who are reasonable and understand that this administration is insane.
Audience Question: Do you feel like, as creative output has changed over time, that as a lawyer representing your client, your role is to educate the USCIS?
Betty: I educate USCIS all the time. A lot of it has to do with social media. You know, them not understanding what it means to do an Instagram post and why it's important, but understanding that social media is important for marketing and things like that. So, yeah, I do educate USCIS all the time, whether it's even obnoxiously printing out the definition of a word from Webster’s dictionary and sending it to them and saying, your definition is wrong according to this, you know? So, yeah, you have to educate USCIS.
4N: Have you ever had a surprise rejection case? Where you think, I did everything.
Betty: Not really. I’ve had issues once it gets approved, and then you go to the consulate and those jerks over there think that they want to overturn it, even though they're not supposed to. I feel like, if you can convince me with the three out of the six criteria minimum, then I can convince USCIS, yes, no surprise. They are annoying sometimes, for instance, for the EB-1, if you win a Grammy Award or an Oscar or Emmy, then supposedly you can just photocopy the award and you get a green card. But no attorney ever does that, because we know how they’re going to be so we always supplement with other stuff.
Audience Question: Are the chances of getting approved the same for all nationalities?
Betty: I mean, I’m sure if I were to do an O-1 for someone from one of the “banned” countries–and there has been this stupid, ridiculous list–I’m sure they're not going to be sit on the, O-1 criteria. I mean, they won't base it on the fact that this person is on the banned list, but they'll probably pick apart the O-1 criteria. So, yeah, they go about their ways of trying to deny folks. I’m pretty sure if I try to file for an Iranian artist right now they’ll get denied. Even if they qualify. The likelihood is high.
Audience Question: Is it hard to renew an O-1?
Betty: The first time is really the hardest, that’s where you have to make the 3 out of 6 situation. And it’s the law that, going forward, you don't have to reprove yourself as an extraordinary, elite alien if they've already made that determination. So really, when you extend, which is what renewals are, you're supposed to just show what you've been doing for the last three years, and what you will be doing. And that's what I mean by Trump being a pain in the butt, because we just have to photocopy, again, what we originally sent to them, you know. So I don't need more recommendation letters for renewals. That's not really necessary. It's really just looking at what you have been doing the last two years to make sure that you continue your work.
Tao Lin talks immigration law to 4N Exchange attendees.
Janine of Ga Ma Diam Goods, serving Taiwanese comfort food.
Lawyer Betty Huang meets attendees to answer their visa questions.
Zeynep Elif Ergin, a 4N talent featured in Issue 3, looks through Issue 2 of the magazine.