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4N Exchange x MOCA: An Issue 2 Launch Party was held at the Museum of Chinese in America on October 8, 2024. Artists from Issue 2 were led in a conversation by Dennis Yueh-Yeh Li, MOCA’s director of performance, storytelling, & community. The panel included Hang Yu, Terumi Saito, Supatida Sutiratana, Ally Yanxiu Luo, and Sixing Xu, who discussed immigration and artist identity against the backdrop of the exhibition Magazine Fever: Gen X Asian American Periodicals. The evening also included performances by Sherly Fan and Dizparity.

If you missed the previous 4N Exchange at Printed Matter, you can read the transcript here.

Sherly Fan performs Can You See My Face? to open the evening. 

Dennis Yueh-Yeh: Before we dive into the topic, I’d like to start with introductions. I’m originally from Taiwan, and I went through the O-1 process. I had about five O-1 visas until I got a green card. And this year, I was actualized as an American citizen. It’s a long journey. I’d also like to know, what was the first moment that you identified yourself as a professional artist?

Ally Luo: My name is Ally, my Chinese name is Yanxiu Luo. My pronouns are she/her, and I came here in 2016, making this my eighth year in the city, which is almost as much time as I spent in different cities in China growing up. I don’t know if I can call myself a professional. I was talking to a friend, and I think an adjective that's more suitable for me would be emerging. I’m just emerging right now. I graduated from a program of science and technology and make a lot of kinetic installations that have to do with water, ecology, and technology. 

Terumi Saito: Hi everyone, my name is Terumi. I’m originally from Japan and I came to the US in 2016. My pronouns are she/her. As far as identifying as a professional artist…I also think I’m not there yet. I’m still an emerging artist pursuing my practice in fiber art and sculpture.

Supatida Sutiratana: My name is Supatida, you can call me Nat (she/her). I’m from Thailand, and I moved here three years ago. I just graduated from SVA. Currently I have a studio with my friend called Midnight Project. We do graphic design, and we specialize in branding. We’re doing a lot of exhibition design right now.

Sixing Xu: Hi everyone, my name is Sixing, I use she/her pronouns. I’m an artist working with installation, writing, and printmaking. I came to the US 10 years ago in 2014 but there was a two and a half year hiatus where I actually moved back to China during the pandemic. My identification with a “professional artist,” I think that’s a question that I’m still struggling with, but I feel like I’ve used the term artist to introduce myself so many times that I sort of internalized it at a particular point that I cannot really pinpoint.

Hang Yu: Hi everyone. My name is Hang, and I’m from China. I graduated from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, and then I came here to New York. I mainly do photography, and humor plays a major part in my work. I’ve identified myself as an artist since I graduated from undergrad. I always knew I wanted to be a professional artist, but I think we all have so many different identities now, too.

Dennis: I want to start with your works, Hang, which inspired this first question. You made all these observations, and took photographs in Times Square with the people who dress as mascots and trouble you to take pictures with them for money. It’s essentially the epitome of the American journey, because you observed that many of the people who were mascots are actually also immigrants themselves. So I want to ask you, what is your definition of the American Dream?

Hang Yu (left) and Dennis Yueh-Yeh Li (right)

Hang: I don’t think there is a very concrete idea about the American Dream. But I do think it starts with saying everyone has equal opportunities, no matter where you’re from, and we all have this mobility in society. I think it’s different for everyone.

Dennis: And what is yours?

Hang: My American Dream is to just be an artist and make work that speaks to myself and my community.

Ally: I don’t know if it’s more appropriate to call it the New York dream. Sometimes people are like, “Oh, we can move to LA,” but I feel like it’s a bit different here. For me it’s really simple. I just want to be happy with what I create, because I know what I make is not there yet. And then also just be able to travel around and have the freedom to not stay in one place.

Supatida: I think it’s everyone’s dream to have opportunities, and this is such a big city. I want to be able to create my own stuff, even small stuff, and have everyone appreciate it. That’s my dream.

Terumi: My goal as an artist in the US is to be a bridge between my own culture and other nationalities. I studied graphic design in Japan, but when I came to New York I actually found out about fiber art, which I really didn't know about growing up in Japan. And I think the environment in the US allowed me to make the decision to transition the focus of my studies. I think people feel that learning is just until college, and then after you graduate it's hard to keep learning new stuff.

For me, the American Dream is to be at peace with the many contradictions that I cannot necessarily resolve, whether that’s in relation to how I identify myself, the dream or desire to move around, and then also the various obstacles and the freedom of the OPT at times. The dream that I want to achieve being in America is probably to figure out a way to be at peace with all of these different aspects that might not be realized at all. I guess that’s also why we call it a dream.

Dennis: It is quite different. We’re a history museum here. We talk so much about the visa, immigration, and you can see a huge change from the 60s onwards. Now we’re in 2024 and we start to see a lot more immigrant artists trying to fulfill their dream. The definition of the American Dream has definitely expanded.

I wonder if we all know what the artist visa is. Would one of you like to explain a little bit more about the artist visa. What actually it is?

Sixing: The official name is the O-1 visa for aliens of extraordinary ability. And I still laugh every time I think of it.

Dennis: Right, on this visa, there are many categories. Tonight we’re presenting the applicants or the owners of the O-1 B, that is extraordinary talents, in particular in the arts. There’s also the O-1 A, for athletes, researchers, and business people. The O-2, for people who assist the O-1, like a nurse, and the O-3, for spousal children.

In order to get a visa, you have to meet a lot of criteria. For example, for the O-1 B, you have to have received or been nominated for a significant national or international award in the particular field, such as the Academy Award, any Grammy or Director’s Guild Award, or at least three forms of evidence (out of six different forms) and all of them essentially want you to prove or provide evidence that you are well-acknowledged by a third party, like publishers and jury committees, or that you’re one of the members of a prestigious organization’s association like SDC (Stage Directors and Choreographers Society). So you have to really prove that you are extraordinary in order to get this.

I’m from Taiwan, and we have a diva that is equivalent to Madonna or Beyonce—she got the O-1 visa at the same time as me. I saw her there and thought, “You got the same visa??” That’s a really weird thing, to have to prove that you’re as extraordinary as somebody that’s like, you know, the equivalent of Madonna.

Some of us are in the process, some have already gotten the O-1—what did you have to prepare for this application?

Terumi Saito (left) and Supatida Sutiratana (right)

Terumi: I graduated from Parsons, but my program was actually the first cohort, so there weren’t any seniors who went through the O-1 from this program. So it was a little bit tricky to navigate my first application, because I didn’t have any references or examples. But actually the lawyer I worked with, their team was really helpful and ended up tailoring my portfolio, which is like 300 pages. I was surprised at how much professional work you have to show. It made me think back, and be glad that I did free labor or volunteering during my graduate program, because then in turn they’ll help you exaggerate, or say that you did a lot of work and that you got paid for it.

Supatida: Right now I’m gathering all of the stuff I have been working on as an exhibition designer since moving here. I have some friends as clients, and some personal exhibitions that I have made with my team. I’m also putting myself into press (like this magazine) to have more evidence. I’m still in the process of asking for recommendation letters. My friends, co-workers, and my supervisor have been willing to help because they know the struggle of the visa. The O-1 visa is a really stressful process. I have friends who have been through the same thing and say that it’s a pretty hard process, but it’s worth it.

Sixing: I went to a liberal arts college and I did not specifically study art, and was not preparing to be an artist until about junior year. Since my sophomore year of college, I started doing internships for museums, galleries, and art studios, and the work that I’ve done for these places and artists are all somewhat creative in nature. I produce websites or video content, and those things are typically included in my separate work resume. This exists alongside my typical artist CV, but for the purpose of O-1, I included all of those materials in my package as well as exhibitions that have shown my work, or text that I’ve published, press articles that have my name.

The thing with the O-1 petition is that you have to petition under a certain title. Mine was multimedia artist, which is not typically how I would introduce myself, but everything that you include in your application package has to correspond to this title in a way. So my lawyer basically suggested a broad enough term that would fit as much of my work as possible.

Dennis: There’s a lot to unpack here. When you’re applying for something, you have to find a lawyer to represent you. Some artists are able to represent themselves, and they’re able to write their own petition. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience of navigating the pool of lawyers. How do you decide which one to go with?

Sixing: Initially I didn’t consult with any lawyers. I think I only talked to three of them in 2022, and their prices at the time were pretty similar, maybe plus or minus $1,000. The decision that I made was pretty much based on my instinct. whether I liked the person enough, or mostly by vibes, because you have to have quite a lot of trust in your lawyer throughout the process. So I would say just listen to your instinct.

Terumi: I had a really different experience from the previous people, since I didn’t have any examples or friends who went through the O-1 in my same areas. I had a friend who did one as a stage manager, and another one in a different profession, but what I did was showed maybe five people my resume and asked if they thought I could qualify. Because at first I wasn’t sure if I even qualified. A few of them really thought I could get it, and then the lawyer seemed very confident even though I was from a niche industry as a textile designer. Reaching out to several people first is free before paying for a consultation.

Dennis: How do you define yourself as an artist? And artist is such a broad term, like what do we mean by “artist,” right? How do you narrow down your own title?

Audience members listened to artists from 4N Issue 2 speak about their experience as foreigners pursuing visas in the US. The discussion happened among MOCA’s exhibition, Magazine Fever: Gen X Asian American Periodicals.

Sixing: I had this conversation with my lawyer pretty early on, because one of the concerns that I had was whether my professional work portfolio could be included in the package. And then they suggested the multimedia artist title, which works pretty well for this purpose. It creates a more cohesive narrative in the materials I submitted. I’ve also heard that there are many artists that use “multidisciplinary artist,” so that covers work that is not that strictly visual art or fine art that you would want to include into your package of materials.

Dennis: Did your lawyers have any tips in terms of your own petition?

Terumi: It was very hard for me to find a job right after I graduated because of Covid, so I had some random part-time jobs. But when I first reached out to a lawyer she told me to find a full-time job to make sure that I could prove my earnings. So I actually had my first consultation, and then I had to look for a job. It took two months, and after that I finally started preparing the documents.

Dennis: When I got my first O-1 in 2013 we didn’t have to prove our income. But when I got my green card, that was first time that all the artists needed to be interviewed in order to get the green card. And that was a policy change that happened in 2016 when we had an administration change. That’s what required artists to have to prove their income and prove that they’re not taking advantage of the US government, like accepting social welfare. They might use that as a reason against your case.

The artist visa is essentially a self position. You don’t work for a corporation or a company. But there are subcategories to the O-1. If you’re a freelancer for example, then you have to provide an itinerary for the next three years of what you’re going to work on. Or you find an agent that will represent you. Tell us a little bit about your process and your visa—what category are you on, and how do you work on those materials?

Sixing: For me, it was more about the itinerary, which kind of became a more existential crisis at this point, because my friend asked me, “What’s your through line?” And then I talked to some alumni, and they’re like, “Where’s the consistency in the things you do?” So for the next month or so, until the end of this year, my task is to think about that for myself, because I graduated from a liberal arts college, and so I’ve learned everything, but I’m not really quite good at anything. I write film reviews, but those are not in the same category as installations. I need to think a lot about how they combine together into one thread going forward.

Dennis: What are some logistical challenges you’ve dealt with?

Sixing: The biggest challenge is actually psychological in a way, because it essentially asks you to look at the past 5 to 10, years of your life and your “achievements.” The O-1 petition is done in a specific legal language that sounds exaggerated to the normal ear. So there’s always this imposter syndrome feeling that’s going on when I have to spend hours googling my name and then just like, save every page that has my name. I think that’s actually like one of the more challenging parts, because you always have this feeling that, okay, this is a visa for extraordinary talents—Am I really that talented?

The more practical challenge, I would say, is the recommendation letter part. My lawyer suggested five to eight, and I aimed for the higher number. Once again, it’s also this mental obstacle that you sometimes pose to yourself, being worried that whoever you reach out to might say no. My suggestion on that is to send those emails to potential recommenders as early as possible so you don't have to worry about it.

Terumi: Reaching out to people can sometimes be intimidating. I remember I was also hesitating asking other people for recommendation letters. But you will be surprised how many people are actually willing to help do it.

Sixing: I’ve also heard that lawyers say you don’t need to touch your portfolio and they’ll prepare everything for you. And some of my friends didn’t see their portfolios until after they got rejected. It’s really important to see every page being made, rather than just have someone else do it.

Dennis: I totally agree with you, because that happened to me. They made a lot of mistakes on my petition. If I didn’t proofread myself, it would have been a huge mistake. It seems like it really takes a mental toll when it comes to applying for this.

Hang, since you are still considering applying, and after hearing all the challenges and the details and procedure, what do you think, and how does our conversation help you prepare yourself?

Hang: It’s very helpful to hear everyone’s experiences, and nowI know what’s coming. The difficult thing is that you feel this impulse that you have to frame yourself in some way, and prove your talent. And I think that box can be always evolving.

Dennis: Applying for this can be very lonely and stressful. I still remember those days. I bought a printer myself, and I put together all of those 500 pages in my bedroom alone. How do you find the support, and how do you cope with your anxiety, or whatever comes up along the way?

Ally: Thankfully I graduated from an MFA program where most of my friends also went through the process, so I have a big group chat with friends talking about it. And then some of my friends don’t even worry about it. I don't know how they do it, but they’re very like “I don’t care, I just submitted it.”

Supatida: Half of my class was from Asian countries, and I think only three of them were American. So everyone had the same problems. But my co-founder has been a huge support, because she went through that process last year and early this year and was able to give me advice. I don't want to make my mom cry, because she’s here, but she’s my huge supporter as well.

Sixing: Friends and family are definitely your best support. My lawyer was very professional, but was also acting like a robot that has no emotion–they will not provide you with any emotional support. On a professional level, they’re not supposed to tell you, “Oh, you got this.” So they’re not disclosing anything regarding whether or not you’ll be approved. Which I guess can be interpreted as a sign of their level of professionalism. But at the same time, you just have to seek out other people for that emotional support.

Dennis: Through this process, we are pursuing the American Dream one way or another. How do you navigate your family relationships in this context? Does your family support you? And, your family relationship, does that also inform your position in terms of whether you want to pursue the visa or not?

Hang: Because my families are still in China, they give me a lot of freedom to explore and let me decide where I should be. I think I will try to apply for the O-1 visa. But that’s a temporary state for me, and I’ve still got to figure it out.

Supatida: The biggest support my family has given me is the freedom that allows me to do what I am doing now. For Asian families, art is not always the best career path in a lot of people’s minds. It’s so different because my dad wants me to go back to Thailand. And I think it’s not a bad thing to go back. Right now in Thailand, we do have success with design, but I feel like here there are more opportunities. My mom is the one who keeps pushing me and is very supportive since I was young.

Terumi: In my family, no one is in art and design, but actually they’re really supportive. It’s just been hard to communicate with Japan from Eastern Standard Time, it’s completely opposite. But I think there are definitely more opportunities in the US like artist residencies and grants. So that’s been the emotional struggle, because I can really see myself going back to Japan, but at the same time, I have my dream and goals that I would like to pursue in my life. I hope I can pay that back here and there. I would like to make them proud.

Ally: My parents are retiring this year, and my dad started reading books about what to do after retirement. He’s also going through a big thinking process about what you can do with your life and what choices you have. I think he just realized that he could do anything, and that made him realize that I can also do anything. In some way we’re in sync in deciding where our life can be. He still thinks that I might go back to China one day in 10 years for him, that’s something he’s holding on to. Also–like a lot of Asian parents–they asked me, “Oh, so art… and what else?” So I said, “Teaching.” And my dad said “Good.”

Dennis: I actually want to ask this question to Supatida’s mom, because we all know in an Asian American family, it’s very hard to pursue an artistic career. Like Ally, your dad just realized that you actually can’t do everything. And how old is he now?

Ally: He’s turning 61.

Dennis: It took him 61 years to realize that. So we all know it’s actually very challenging. Working with a lot of artists, they express the same thing. A lot of actors also have a full time job. I know this doctor who has a clinic, and then on the side she acts. So I want to ask your mom, how did you decide to support your kid in the art world? Did you experience any challenges in terms of coming to that decision?

Supatida’s Mom, Nidapa Sutiratana, answers questions during the panel.

Supatida’s Mom: I’ve always supported her, since she was very young. It’s my obligation, my responsibility to support her in everything she does. I let her have her own ideas, whatever she would like to study.

Supatida: Because in Thailand, art is just drawing. So we need to go to extra classes, like after school.

Supatida’s Mom: I have two daughters, and both of them choose their own way of studying. And I’m the driver.

Supatida: The Uber!

Supatida’s Mom: Yes, the Uber! I am happy if they’re all happy and get success in their careers and everything. It is my happiness to do that.

Dennis: Were you ever worried?

Supatida’s Mom: Worried? Yes, always, she’s my daughter! Even though she is grown up, has her master’s degree. Every morning in Thailand or every evening, here. I will support her for the rest of my life.

Dennis: That’s really nice. Thank you for being so supportive. 

Audience Question #1: Through this process, what have you learned about yourself or about your practice? 

Supatida: When I was in Thailand, everything is very tiny, everyone knows each other. But here the more you know, the more people there are to help you out. And I think a lot of people are willing to help. I was so surprised. My supervisor would alway text and ask if I’m okay or if I need any help. That’s changed a lot for me, not just about the visa, but also the way I’m thinking about New York City.

Sixing: I totally agree. When I reached out for recommendation letters, everybody said yes, including former professors and former employers who I haven’t really been in active contact with, which also just reminded me to just actually check in on them from time to time. The relationships that have developed during this process are also compassionate. Like, your co-workers are often your friends at the same time.

Dennis: Correct me if I’m wrong—I believe it’s Andy Warhol who says, if you want to reach success, it really depends on how many people you know as an artist. 

Ally: Sometimes I feel like it’s nepotism. I guess there’s some merit to it for sure.

Audience Question #2: What is it you want to tell the world with your work?

Terumi: One of the core values of my practice is centered on cultural sustainability. I practice a traditional style of weaving technique, a dying tradition called back stroke weaving. What I’m trying to do through my practice is to bring it back into a contemporary context, and share the knowledge and the history. It’s a tradition that people are trying to preserve.

Ally: My work is about human connection and thinking about the world. I just remembered a quote from Daniel Jewesbury who said, “I’m not confused, but I’m unconvinced.” I think that’s my general attitude towards the world. I’m unconvinced by why this world is functioning this way. Are there other possible ways this world could function in, and can we potentially change it? I think that’s an attitude I’m trying to embrace and also communicate to a lot of people who are here: Start questioning the status quo, start questioning if things have to be this way, and then maybe start to make a change.

Audience Question #3: The process of applying for a visa and being an artist is a very vulnerable experience, and the relationship with identity as well. A relationship with the art, and with yourself. How do you see the term “Asian,” or “Asian American,” and where are you at in relation to this term?

Ally: I was born and raised in China. But I’m not Chinese American. I’m Chinese in America.

So I think it’s a very different dynamic in this conversation. I know a lot of people have seen Dìdi, the recent film, and I can empathize with it, but it’s not my experience growing up. I don’t know how that plays into the answer, but it’s a bit different, navigating this culture here.

Supatida: I feel like I’m more confident here to really be myself. Because back in Thailand I cannot show my art or present myself that well. And here, I think my identity is stronger, and people can see and appreciate it more.

Sixing: I have so many thoughts about sub-identities within the larger diaspora discourse.

But then something that is slightly funny to me, is that the O-1 visa itself sort of defines a certain identity for us. It is a “non-immigrant temporary visa,” which puts me in the position of a foreigner in this country.

And I guess I could learn to situate myself in this identity as a foreigner, it’s kind of an interesting conceptual exercise, in a way. There’s the larger discussion of identity and identity politics, but it also puts me in an increasingly destabilized and even precarious position in this country.

Hang: My legal term is “illegal alien.” My way of dealing with this identity is to create art, and to show the nuances of my identity and how I’m categorized.

After the panel, DJ Dizparity performed a live set, mixing analog and digital sounds.

4N Exchange attendees look at archival magazines on display in Magazine Fever: Gen X Asian American periodicals.  

Sixing Xu (left) and Sherly Fan (right) holding Issue 2 of 4N. 

 Terumi Saito takes a photo of 4N magazine on display at MOCA, as part of the Magazine Fever exhibition.

Left to right: Hang Yu, Wen-You Cai, Weiyun Chen, Supatida Sutiratana

Supatida Sutiratana and her mom, Nidapa Sutiratana.

 Visit 4Nmag.com to learn more.