4N Exchange Panel at Printed Matter
4N Exchange was held at Printed Matter on June 13, 2024. Artists from Issue 1 engaged in a conversation on weaving through visa hurdles as a foreign creative. The panel included Taole Zhu, Keiko Taniguchi, Fía Benitez, Michelle Eun Jung Ho, Yi Hsuan Lai, and Weiyun Chen, led by Special Special’s resident O1 creative Panny Chayapumh.
Taole Zhu: My name is Taole, and I’m from China. I’ve actually spent roughly 10+ years in the US already, mostly just college education, but I’ve also done a lot of different things after my fine art program ended a couple years ago. In my visual art practice, I’m working on a cookbook called The Starving Artist Cookbook. This working title comes from a previous artist generation who compiled a “cookbook” of Fluxus imaginative recipes–like concrete recipes. Inside of this book there’s a lot of dishes that, together, become a grand feast. Not all of them are really edible, of course, and some of them are mostly there to reflect our contemporary world.
Keiko Taniguchi: I’m Keiko Taniguchi from Japan. I moved to the United States in 2019, right before Covid. I only wanted to stay for one year for language school, but I met so many artists and friends here that I decided to join that community and start performing tea ceremonies in New York. And yeah, I have a lot of problems with my visa. I may need to go back to Japan this year.
Fía Benitez: My name is Fía, I grew up in Mexico and moved here for school almost 10 years ago. My practice deals a lot with the policies of place, and I often work site-specifically. The mediums I choose to work with often resonate with the content of whatever I’m researching. Most recently I’ve made large-scale drawings and ceramics, and I typically publish essays or poetry with each new body of work.
Michelle Eun Jung Ho: My name is Michelle, I’m from South Korea. I initially moved to the states when I was in the sixth grade. My mom’s family lives in California so it was just kind of natural, and my family sort of moved back and forth between Korea and the states. I am a book artist based in Brooklyn, and my work mostly deals with reflection and documentation of the self. My recent works are sculptural artist books which can change through interaction.
Yi Hsuan Lai: Hello, my name is Yi Hsuan Lai, but you can call me Shan. I’m originally from Taiwan, and I came here in 2017. I went to SVA because I really wanted to learn photography. So I’ve been working on photography interplay with sculptural presentation between 2- and 3-D installation.
Weiyun Chen: I’m also from Taiwan, and I’ve been here since 2018. I got my second master’s at SVA in 2020. I’ve worked with Lucky Risograph since 2019, and I’m doing a lot of research on risograph printing and production. Me and my partner actually created a studio together, and we do a lot of exhibition design, both for ourselves and other people, plus a lot of brand identity stuff at the moment.
Panny: Keiko, I remember you mentioning that you have a lot of visa issues–what are your current ones?
Keiko: I’m currently on a student visa. I just graduated from school last year, so now I have OPT, which is a work visa, but it expired last month. So I had to find a lawyer and you have to process all the documentation within the two months, but I didn’t find a lawyer until last week finally.
Panny: I feel like it’s a common hurdle where post-graduating you have that one year of OPT. How have you guys worked around having that one year? What do you dedicate that OPT year to?
Michelle: So I got my undergrad degree last spring, and I wasn’t originally going to apply for an O-1. I just didn’t think it would be possible since at that point I didn’t have that much professional experience. But luckily within two months of graduating I found a job at a publishing studio based in Brooklyn. They were looking for someone to do consulting and engineering the structure of books. So I was able to build a portfolio and gain experience from that, which has given me confidence to apply for the O1.
Panny: Since it seems like most of us came to the US for college, how much preparation did college give you in terms of navigating what to do after graduation?
Fia: There’s definitely an International Students Office at our college. It was very ad hoc and more word-of-mouth. I had to become accustomed to the deadlines creeping up and thinking “Oh, if I want to be here in a couple of months down the road, I have to start working towards that now.” There’s the baseline of like, how to file your taxes, this is what you can and can’t do, but it was through talking to other friends that I realized what the extra work would constitute.
Panny: How did everyone here get connected to their lawyer? Do you have any tips for anyone who is looking?
Taole: Mostly just word-of-mouth from friends who have applied successfully. It’s always good to have lawyer friends. Make sure you stay connected. That’s like the most important thing, otherwise you can hit a bumpy road.
Keiko: So many lawyers ask for a consultation fee for that first 1-2 hours, and some of them are free. My worst lawyer asked me to pay $460 for just a one hour chat–such a terrible mistake really. She kept talking about how the other lawyer I worked with was bad and saying “Oh you should come and work with my brother.” And he said “Did you bring cash? Okay sure, have a nice day.” These expenses are really hard, because generally jobs under an OPT do not pay very well. Some people pay $3,000, some people pay more than $7,000 for the process.
Panelists Left-Right: Fía Benitez, Keiko Taniguchi, Taole Zhu
Panny: How did you find your lawyer, Fía?
Fia: Right now I’m working through my university, so I did consult with a lawyer. But at first they just basically gave us a list of people we can speak to, but the fees are quite high. And at that time I wasn’t totally sure what I wanted to do. So I just decided to work OPT and I didn’t need a lawyer for that, it was just through the school. But then my graduate school collaborated with a lawyer who did pro bono consults, which is immensely helpful, because even knowing whether or not you want to start the process is already so costly.
Michelle: I had a consultation with three different lawyers and I found them all very different ways. The first one actually Panny referred me to, and she also had an ad in the first issue. And then the second person was my mom’s friend’s friend. And the third person, I just Googled him.
Yi Hsuan Lai: My first O1 lawyer was recommended by some alumni from SVA. Through staying here you meet different people who also need the same things. So we share who we find. You prepare some questions and have different consults and get answers through talking to different lawyers. It feels like dating–you have to find that one you feel is a match, and you feel comfortable talking to.
Weiyun: Most of the lawyer recommendations have been from my friends who were on the O1 Visa in the past two, three years. Choosing a lawyer is really hard! Finding a lawyer through friends is the faster way, because they will all have an experience to share. But it’s case-by-case.
Panny: I also got my lawyer through a friend, and it’s so funny because I’ve known her for more than eight years. It's a very close relationship. But, yeah, it’s very much case by case. And because I had a good experience with her, I recommend her to as many people as I can. I feel like amongst the seven of us we could create a great online lawyer resource spreadsheet that could be very helpful.
So obviously organizing this stuff is very difficult, costly, it’s stressful–what are you getting from the US that you’re determined to stay and make it work? Like why put in all this effort?
Keiko: So I started my artist career in the United States, and whenever I show it to you know, like, press people, newspaper, other people in Japan. Their reaction is not that welcome, compared with a New York audience. So that’s why I really decided to stay here to keep doing my artist career. I thought, I have more of an audience here.
Weiyun: I also have a similar thing–the community is really small. In Taiwan, the design is pretty good over there, but I do think the opportunity here is actually still better compared to Taiwan. I’m not saying Taiwan is a bad place, but as a designer, I want to stay here for at least six years and see what it’s going to be.
Panny: There’s always a spot somewhere in job applications where it will ask if you’ll be needing a visa, and I usually lie in that section because I’ve never petitioned through my employer, I usually petition for myself. But for me it was an effort to be more independent, especially when I was just fresh out of college. I was afraid they would skip over my application because of that. Have you ever encountered this?
Fía: I resonate with what you’re saying. In that disclosure of “Oh, I’m international,” it’s kind of a gamble, because it can be an asset. And other people might, you know, have their own biases or assumptions, or don’t have the capacity to sponsor someone, even with additional documentation. It’s a slippery slope with like, maybe that’s exactly who they want, someone who’s international and has that cultural competency and background. But there's really no way of knowing until you share that, but it might also go the other way. So I think it’s really tricky.
Taole: There are many small businesses and lots of immigrants around. So everybody finds their way—like Chinese restaurants taking cash only and like us, doing work together but we just pay each other. So I find that there are actually many possibilities, and I do like to hustle. I used to run a photo studio project space in Chinatown before the pandemic. So I had an entity as an organization which allowed me to work with business organizations like Nike, or fashion magazines, where, legally speaking, I wouldn’t have been able to just as an individual. But there are many ways that it works out perfectly, and everybody’s happy, of course. They pay quickly. So that’s also important, because those projects take a lot of people and payment always gets delayed. So that’s something you would not want to see. But part of working with a little bit bigger companies has that advantage that you don’t have to worry about.
Panny: Yeah, it’s a gamble. Some people really get it and empathize with the situation, and others are not willing to take a risk at all.
While I was writing for the 4N manifesto, I looked through my Dropbox to see how many letters I’ve gotten in total. I just petitioned and have been approved for my third O-1, and have a total of 35 letters. What are your experiences with asking for letters from people?
Panelists Left to Right: Speaker Yi Hsuan Lai, Michelle Eun Jung Ho
Yi Hsuan Lai: I have a lot of respect for a professor from school. I just asked her, can you help me through a recommendation letter? Because I got a letter from the government saying I need to provide more material. And she wrote back to me saying that my art is not particularly interesting, she didn’t understand why I didn’t want to go back to my country—because my country is nice. And I just really sincerely told her that because I feel very free to create my work here and that I found my community, and I believe I'm a good person who is worthy to stay here. And she said that this really moved her. And then she gave me the letter.
Fía: The schools I’ve been to have a really significant international community. So I’m grateful for the people who have paved the way. The faculty were often very familiar with it either from writing for other students or they themselves were foreigners. It’s helpful when they have this context, because there’s a lot of extra education and effort that goes into creating consciousness around one circumstance when you’re asking for specific things or even just living your life.
Panny: I remember when I read through the first letter that I ever asked for and the language was very interesting. If you’ve ever read through a visa recommendation letter, it’s a little bit embarrassing. There’s very specific jargon that details this person is the absolute best. Are there any phrases from your own letters that have stuck with you?
Yi Hsuan Lai: “One of a kind.” I feel right now Chat GPT can help us with writing. I feel like my writing is all the same because of my language skills. It can be so hard.
Panny: Do you think that your body of work has been affected by the need to balance your practice and create a portfolio for your visa, as opposed to doing projects that might not get you press or a line on your resume?
Michelle: In my case, I didn’t create work in order to include it in my visa application. But I have noticed that my lawyers do prefer commercial work over my own personal creative works. So they’re asking for more documentation focusing on those works rather than the things I put in my exhibitions and things like that. So that does make me a little sad, but I just say to myself “It’s for the visa, it’s just for two months” and then I can go back to doing my creative practice.
Panelists Left-Right: Keiko Taniguchi, Taole Zhu, and Panny Chayapumh (4N resident O1 specialist)
Panny: I’ve done that before. I’m sure there’s a way to marry the two, and I’m sure some people are able to do it. But from my personal experience, it hasn’t always been that way. Aside from your lawyers, who are people you have gotten really good visa advice from?
Keiko: Yeah, from my friend who just got their artist visa from the lawyer that I decided to work with. They said to just pay as soon as possible because some people don’t pay and then the lawyer forgets about it or says that they’re too busy now. That was important advice for me.
Michelle: I did ask one friend how to prepare for consultations, what to ask, why she chose her lawyer, and what kind of documents they requested from her. And also what kind of documents they were interested in including in the application to gage if I’m ready for the visa or not. But besides her I didn’t have any friends who had gone through the O-1 process. So I also got a lot of advice from Reddit.
Panelist Michelle Eun Jung Ho Speaking
Panny: How do you guys deal with looming deadlines? Do you have any advice on how to stay calm and not be anxious? I mean, it’s a hard question.
Taole: Let’s just say it’s enlightenment.
Panny: Do you think there are any good habits you’ve picked up from having to do all the visa stuff? Do you think it’s brought a sense of organization into your life?
Fía: I have been better about documenting, saving everything, and making it a habit. And on anticipating deadlines, knowing when to start freaking out, what work can be done at what point, and having clarity around that. Another part of that is also learning how to be chill and enjoy yourself, because I feel like if not, then it’s just a constant cycle of anxiety and then you’re not really enjoying your time here. So for me, I’ve tried to incorporate that into the process and remember to also just be present.
Panny: I like to think of the year after you get approved as like the free fun year.
Do you feel your foreign culture or background, or your visa status sets you apart from your peers who may not be going through the same logistical challenges as you?
Keiko: When I do talk to other people and mention that I’m doing a visa and tell them about my practice, it is really good practice for me. So it’s not always a bad aspect. And I have to keep moving forward as well. I have three more performances to do before I apply for the visa, so it takes scheduling beforehand.
Michelle: I have college friends who are also Korean and grew up partly in Korea. One is a dual citizen and the other has a green card, so they don’t really have the same concerns that I do. When I was interviewing for my job, I wasn’t sure how my employer would react to the fact that I would require a visa in the future. I remember talking to my friends like “I don’t know how to approach this conversation,” and they sort of had a hard time empathizing with me. They were just kind of like “It’ll be fine.” And I was like, that’s not how things go.
Panny: How does your family feel about you wanting to spend time or start a career in a country that might be far away from home?
Weiyun Chen: My brother is actually a citizen, because my parents both studied here, but then they went back to Taiwan to find a job before I was born. My mom didn’t tell me until last year that she supported me in whatever I wanted to do… I think that family support is really important.
Panelist Weiyun Chen Speaking
Yi Hsuan Lai: When I first graduated my dad wanted me to go back because he was so worried I still wasn’t married. My mom earlier this year was [having some medical issues] and I felt really bad that I wasn’t there with her. I asked her if she felt bad because I wasn’t with her, but she said she really supported me in what I love to do and that I will shine and be happy here. So I’m really thankful for that.
Michelle: When I initially started thinking about the O1, I was like yeah, I’m definitely going to do this. And when I did the research and found out about the fee I was like, Okay, maybe not. I had a conversation with my parents, who did encourage me to do it and said “We think it’s a great opportunity for you to stay longer in the states, and there’s a big community there.” They told me to try to gain more experience and then come back to Korea later if I wanted. So they’re very happy that I’m going through the process, and I’m very grateful to have their support.
Panny: So do you see yourself eventually becoming a resident? Or is this just a temporary moment in your life that you’ll be in the United States?
Taole: I thought about this question for a long time, because I’ve also stayed in the United States for a while now. I would do it for the sake of convenience, because then I would be able to focus more entirely on what I do as an artist. And as a label, which country you come from, you know, if you die it doesn’t go with you.
Michelle: I’ve also thought about this question a lot, as I’ve also spent like a third of my life in the States. Thinking like, do I want to stay in the States because I feel more comfortable with the culture here, or because of what I’m currently doing for my career? And my conclusion was that I just want to stay here because I like the artistic community here, and I want to be able to continue having these opportunities and, like, have these resources to continue my creative practice. So yeah, becoming a resident isn’t really a goal for me. I feel like I’m actually just kind of a nomad. As I’ve mentioned I’ve moved back and forth between Korea and the states and even within the states. I’ve lived in California and Chicago, now New York, which was not planned at all. So I’m hoping maybe I can even explore Canada at some point.
Panny: I think I’m looking to do an EB-1 visa, mainly because I’m a bit tired of the three-year cycle. And I think, similar to Taole, there’s a large amount of convenience. And it doesn’t mean that I would spend the whole 10 years here, but I see it as investing in my own freedom. Now I want to turn to the audience for questions.
Audience Q 1: Can I ask how much each of you have spent so far on visas? Like travel back and forth, all the logistics.
Panny: Mine is at least 15K. I’m just counting lawyer fees, and I’ve done premium processing at least twice, which is when your case gets reviewed in 14 weeks.
Michelle: For consultations, two of them were $200 each, and then one of them was free. So including lawyer fees, and I’m also planning to do premium processing, it's going to be about 10K.
Keiko: Yeah, same as everybody. I wish I could have spent less than 10K, but I already spent 4K even before I actually started to get things processed.
Audience Q 2: My name is Oliver, and I might be potentially doing what you’re doing. I wonder, if you didn’t pursue the O1 visa route, do you think you’d still be as productive in your own work, or would you be more inclined to find a job that’s irrelevant to your practice and take it more slow? Since the O1 visa has that time restraint and is very pressing. Do you think you would orient your life or work differently? And if you do, do you have any regrets or any dreams of an alternate possibility?
Panny: I don’t think I have any regrets, but I will say I know myself and I unfortunately need a bit of pressure to get things done. So as much as the whole visa process has been tiresome, it does force me to be on a schedule, which is helpful for me.
Keiko: I agree with Panny. I already have a plan, and I don’t do it sometimes, but because of this process I have to finish it before I start talking with a lawyer. So sometimes it’s very helpful.
Yi Hsuan Lai: I do feel the O1 makes the three years go so fast. And it’s always like, what’s next, what’s next? Every year, it seems more important to build things up for you to make things happen. And it’s quite stressful, but it really pushes you.
Panny: I think I would like to slow down, though. That’s why I’m trying to get the EB1, because I've been working professionally for almost 10 years, so I’ve collected a decent amount of work that I can use in a portfolio. So after the EB1 I do hope to slow down and get involved in things that are closer to my heart.
A lively Q&A session
Audience Q 3: For people who have gone through this process, do you think there’s a need for some sort of overhaul in the process that would make it simpler for people to pursue these visas? And if any of you have friends or family in other countries, maybe if they’ve shared something about what other countries might do more effectively in their visa process?
Taole: There’s a lot of countries in Europe and Japan that are providing digital nomad visas that are especially great for freelancers and allow you to work and live in that country for a certain amount of time. So that’s an alternative. For the US, because a lot of immigrants are either getting visas through their employer or H1Bs, and any type of visa that requires lotteries–I think it’s more complicated in terms of process, but also in terms of the relationship between you and the employer. And that’s just really fucked up because they’re also trying to lay people off and things like that. So that is actually an advantage that artists have, that we can choose our own pace and create new paths. And the criteria, honestly, for being an “extraordinary talent” is quite subjective. There are a lot of things I think we can play around with, and that’s a positive thing.
Michelle: One saying I’ve heard while preparing for this process is that it really depends on what kind of day the officer is having when they’re reviewing your case. I heard from a friend who’s living in Australia that the process there is slightly different. They have specific criteria where you can rack up points–like if you have so many articles written about you or awards. And you just have to satisfy a certain number of points.
Taole: If you can think of this as a game where you just check mark a lot of things that meet the criteria, then it’ll be great. The person reviewing your portfolio and your work doesn’t come from an art background, and the only way to define you as being really talented is through those lists of things you’ve done. On the logistics side it’s not as hard as it sounds, but mentally, as an artist, it’s important to tell yourself that hey, you are still doing talented things. You have to talk to yourself about it constantly.
Audience Q 4: I’m Vyolet, and I’m also in the process of applying for an O1 visa. I graduated last May, so my OPT is ending soon. I’m wondering, do you submit your application before your OPT date or do you also utilize the two-month grace period? Because I’m thinking like what if I publish something new or have a new exhibition that I can add to my material. So I’m debating whether I should just submit it at the end of this month or if I should wait to include the one or two projects that I’m in the middle of.
Michelle: I feel like it depends on a few things, like whether you’re filing through an employer, or doing premium processing. If you do premium processing then you’ll get your result within 14 days. But if you don’t then it’s really a gamble. It could be two months, or four months, and if your grace period ends before that result comes out, then you would have to leave the states and wait for your result outside of the US. Also, something I found out this week, the tricky part is that if you’re in the states and your case gets approved, then you don’t have to leave the country to do an interview and get a visa stamp. I’ve heard that a lot of people, even after they get their case approved by USCIS, will sometimes get their visa denied at the interview. So that is a risk.
Audience Q 5: How has your life changed before and after getting the O1 visa? Is the job hunt getting easier?
Panny: My life has not changed. I’ve also stayed at my jobs for a slightly long time. My first job was at this nonprofit organization called Creative Time, and I was there for five and a half years. And I've been at Special Special for a little over two.
Michelle: I don’t have my visa yet, but my current job is sponsoring me for the visa. And because I’m filing through an employer, I can’t do any other gigs. So, you know, job secured for the next three years.
Taole: But also you can be your own employer, or have your own business entity. Which is really amazing because it kind of has a healthy work/life balance and you can use this to build up the community around you. You’re not just an island. We can also work together.
Yi Hsuan Lai: Last week I decided to set up my LLC. So for my second O1, my lawyer suggested that I can use my LLC as my sponsor. And I never knew I could do that. So I feel good that I don’t need to rely on any other people.
Following the lively discussions, the exchange continued at a bar nearby to celebrate and get further acquainted
Extraordinary Talents need not be shy! Weiyun Chen (Issue 1), Wen-You Cai (4N Team), Michelle Eun Jung Ho (Issue 1)
Foreign and domestic talents! L-R Maria Arenas, Thanh Bui, Weiyun Chen (Issue 1), Supadita Sutiratana (Issue 2), and Michelle Eun Jung Ho (Issue 1)
Issue 2 talent Zixin Chen and Issue 1 talent Keiko Taniguchi
A cap exchange between friends Anna Mikaela Ekstrand and Jiaoyang Li
A Michelangelo worthy celebration, photo by Carter Hill
Catch you at the next 4N Exchange!
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Unless otherwise stated all photos by Kelly Rogers and Wen-You Cai